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Kilee25
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re: 5.4 EPGP changes: Voice your opinions now!

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The people in guilds that use loot council care just as much about loot as anyone else. It's just easier to act like you don't care when the items fall so often that they no longer feel "rare". When the guild isn't progressing quickly, loot council can still be a guild killer and a very unfair system. Systems like EPGP fit better in guilds that are at a medium level of progression because it gives people more feeling of control over a resource that is limited and more scarce.

Also, most loot councils have a behind-the-scenes EPGP-like system driving them anyway. I was an office in a loot council guild before I joined this one, and (unseen by the guild) we were basically just doing EPGP with the occasional ability to over-ride who got what (which was very, very rarely used). Incidentally when we started having problems with progression it was one of the first things people started bitching about. The only reason we were able to maintain loot council was because the guild (at one time) was the best on the server.

People will put up with almost anything if they like the people they are playing with and the raids have good leadership.

I'm also pretty sure that anyone who raids 9-12 hours a week cares equally about progressing as they do loot. However, "caring" and "behaving accordingly" don't always go hand in hand. I "care" deeply about my declining health as I get older, but that doesn't make me exercise more or eat less...

It's much easier and less time-consuming to write a post than to do a colossal amount of raid prep outside of raids. So I wouldn't say it's accurate that a few sentences in this thread from people indicates some level of "mis-appropriated effort".

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Concerning the actual topic, what is your definition of a "minor upgrade"?

To me, the difference between a major or a minor upgrade has nothing to do with iLevel. Instead it directly correlates to the list of items available from the bosses that we can kill, as compared to my currently equiped item.

As a fictional example, say we are currently at 4/6 bosses in an instance, and I am looking to upgrade my bracers. In this (fictional) instance, 3 bracers fall from the 4 bosses that we can kill. I rank these bracers as such:

Bracer #1 - 100 dps increase
Bracer #2 - 75 dps increase
Bracer #3 - 50 dps increase

I would generally consider Bracer #2-3 to be "minor upgrades", and Bracer #1 would be my "major upgrade". I would take 2-3 if no one else wants them, but I wouldn't want to pay full price for it. In addition, if I win bracer #2, I might consider Bracer #1's status changed to a "minor upgrade".....

Basically I view the minor upgrade option as giving me some additional level of control over what items I get.

If minor upgrade is taken away, I either pass completely on Bracer #2-3, or I take the first one that falls and try not to worry about it.

Whatever the guild decides to do, you just have to live with and adjust your gear planning accordingly.

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If there's no price difference between minor and major upgrades, then I would see no reason not to leave it in, as basically it just allows people pass the item to people who feel they need it more.

If there's a price difference associated with the minor upgrade (i.e. it costs 50% less than a major upgrade), then there's several methods of gaming the system. For example:

1. I can "gamble" by picking minor upgrade on any item I know I'm going to win anyway. I can increase the odds of my gamble by being aware of what equipment the rest of my competition is wearing in the current raid. People who are good at gambling and playing the odds usually do really well at this.
2. If I'm playing a class that has little to no competition (an enhancement shaman, for example), I can minor upgrade items that have no cross-competition, and save my major upgrade bids for items with competition. Basically if you play a rare class, you get a major advantage over everyone else.

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t's generally much more difficult than said to identify or "punish" people who try to abuse the system. Having been an officer and loot-manager in 3 guilds, I can tell you that...

a) People truly abusing any given system are much rarer and much more subtle than you'd imagine. Most people who use the minor upgrade are doing so legitimately and for good reason (at least, in their opinion).
b) In a given raid night that drops 30+ items, it's very easy for officers to miss someone occasionally trying to cheese the system. Small exceptions get buried in the hustle and bustle of trying to keep the raid moving smoothly. No one wants to have the raid pulled over to deal with a minor issue.
c) Addressing those rare occasions when someone is abusing the system almost never ends well. Even if you don't lose a raider, you've basically "poisoned the well" as the raiders start to feel resentful and not trusted by the leadership.

In the end, as a result of all the above, it's pretty easy to game the system and never get called out on it, as long as you aren't blatant and obvious about it. (You can also generally get away with more if you are well-liked by the guild or are in an important position.)

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Deciding whether nor not to keep or drop the minor upgrade option depends on the specifics of your rules and how much you feel the above "loopholes" are affecting the balance of it.

From an officer perspective, I can understand and sympathize with it being easier to just drop it than to deal with the fringe abuse that is probably happening. However, from a raider perspective, I would still rather have the option and greater control, and put up with the occasional abuse.

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Regardless of whether or not there is a minor upgrade, you also have an additional form of abuse that is inherent with all EPGP systems, and that is basically just "skipping upgrades".

I have 16 slots on my character, and the damage breakdown of upgrading each slot works like so:
Weapon - 2000 dps
Chest - 500 dps
Bracer - 100 dps

Etc... while it's true that EPGP has built-in scaling for the allocation of stats, I can just choose not to upgrade the items that do not affect my character much (bracers, rings, capes, etc..) and only take items like weapons and trinkets. On average, my dps will still keep up with the rest of the raid (because loot is a limited resource), and I'll get the more choice items that fall.

Another thing you can do is just skip a tier of loot completely at the start of an expac. Once you get ahead in EPGP, you pretty much will always be ahead for the rest of an expac. I see people doing this sometimes too..

You just have to have a lot of patience and self-control to do that, but a lot of people do it to varying degrees.

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I don't necessarily view any of the above bad or immoral behavior. It's like setting food on the ground in front of a dog and then punishing it for eating the food. If you give people a choice, they are going to try to do what's best for them. Rather I'd think something was seriously wrong if people DIDN'T try to work things to their advantage.

The beauty of an EPGP system is that it is "relatively fair", and none of the methods of gaming it are particularly effective or unfair towards the other players. Everyone has the ability to do the same thing, and every item they bid on is ultimately their own decision.

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Personally, I've come to the acceptance that I'm never going to get every item out of an instance. I've played in 4 different raiding guilds over the past 8 years, and I've never, EVER capped out in gear in a tier while the content was still relevant. Ultimately there's just no point in trying to game a system if you're in a guild that isn't clearing content quickly enough to have enough loot to go around. After you realize and accept this, you generally will have a much more enjoyable time raiding.

How do you "win" at EPGP? Show up to the raids. Take any item that improves your performance. Be happy for people who win items you want, because it's a team effort in the end. Realize NO ONE is going to get everything they want, and that's okay.

Lol.... sorry (go canada!) for the rant.
Pootigalore
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re: 5.4 EPGP changes: Voice your opinions now!

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Quote:
It's much easier and less time-consuming to write a post than to do a colossal amount of raid prep outside of raids. So I wouldn't say it's accurate that a few sentences in this thread from people indicates some level of "mis-appropriated effort".


Unless you are talking about this post. A person has to completely retire from the game to have the time to type out all this!!! tongue out


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re: 5.4 EPGP changes: Voice your opinions now!

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Pootigalore wrote:
My 2c on this whole topic. If people worried about killing bosses as much as they worried about getting their loot, we would be much farther progressed on heroic kills. I suppose that's why all the best guilds are loot council. Ask yourselves what your goal is. Is it to be the best geared ( insert class here ) on the server, or to be in a guild that has cleared heroic content.


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Higgeroth
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re: 5.4 EPGP changes: Voice your opinions now!

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Pootigalore wrote:
Is it to be the best geared potato on the server


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